That 'other' engine I'm working on (development blog?)

[gekido]

After years of having people ask if they can post news about their own engines, here I am doing the same thing...

First, I'd like to ask the community - do people mind if I post somewhat 'off-topic' news updates about Beyond Virtual here (in the general discussions forum)?

Even though we don't have the Indie license available yet, i'd like to keep anyone that's interested up to date with how things are progressing, but also don't want to offend anyone by posting news about our non-RF development efforts.

I may setup a more permanent 'bv blog' on the uber-geek.ca site if people don't want me to post here, but i figured it would be interesting to some people to see how we are putting bv together...let me know if i'm wrong in thinking this.

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With that said, i'll post a brief update on what we've been working on for the past few months, I've been pretty 'out of touch' lately, I apologize for that. I'd also like to apologize for the RF site downtime and disappearance of the old RF hosted sites.

My offer still stands - if anyone would like to access their old RF sites that I was hosting to get access to their sites & info there, please email me & I'll get the info online so you can grab it.

The reason for the disappearance was that a hacker used the Ikonboard to basically get root access to our server and installed a program onto the machine that started doing ICMP flood attacks against other machines. (ICMP is used for 'pinging' other servers).

The server that we have is fairly hefty - it's a dual xeon 2.4 ghz machine with a TON of ram, so it basically overwhelmed the entire OpusHosting network and took all of their servers and sites offline as a result of the outgoing traffic.

Anyone that hosts their site with Opus likely noticed the downtime - it took them a while to figure out what exactly was going on, and once we figured it out, we decided that the best thing to do was to pull the entire server offline until we could back up the data that we needed & reformat the machine.

Unfortunately, we do not have a fulltime sys admin maintaining the server (being a small company), and getting the entire server back operational still has not yet been completed.

My thanx to QoD for taking the initiative and getting the RF community back up and running - there wasn't really much else that we could do. We still have no idea what other 'treats' that our hacker installed on the machine, and as a result have had to literally go through all of the websites directory by directory to make sure that we aren't re-infecting the machine once we do get it reformatted and resetup.

Such a hastle even if we DID have a fulltime sysadmin - let alone with a parttime one that we bribe with beer for work ;}

ugh...

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Anyways, onto Beyond Virtual news.

At the moment, we have 1 in-house fulltime programmer working on BV (besides myself), and we have brought on another developer with a ton of industry experience to serve as the Art Lead / Technical Artist for our company as well. He has worked at both EA & Radical as a technical artist, has programming & art/3d modeling experience and looks like he's going to be a major addition to the team.

Our immediate tasks for BV are completing the move from the Steer Madness gameshell to a more generic 'reusable' game shell that can be used for any type of game based on the engine. This is quite a task in itself, as the entire engine was built with Steer Madness in mind, so there are a number of things that we are doing to make it more 'RF-like', such as setting up a number of additional configuration / setup files so that you can setup global paths for all content & assets (similar to RF's directory path system), as well as removing any Steer Madness-specific assets that the controllers themselves are dependent on. (FYI, Controllers are to BV what Entities are to RF/Genesis).

We are hoping to complete the first-wave of development on the generic gameshell this coming week.

At the same time as getting this basic game shell ready to go, we have been working on the basic directory structure that BV-based games will use for content, scripts etc. RF users will find that it's fairly similar to what we have setup with RF, except things like textures and 3d objects don't need to be compiled at all - they are simply organized into directories for easy modification during the development process.

Other things that we have been working on are more fallbacks and failsafes for file loading - currently the engine is designed to work how the Veggie Games team developed their content, but teams using the engine will have alot more flexibility (and the engine will allow) alot more freedom on how you want to setup your games.

On the list for the near future are:
- completing the update of the current controllers so that the ODE physics are supported all around (currently the vehicle, player & object support is in, no ragdoll at the moment though)
- enhancements on the level editor (supporting multiple worlds instead of one large one, adding more gui 'widgets' to allow a more flexible interface among other things)
- continual work on the art pipeline for other 3d packages - our maya & max support currently is for static objects only, animations & morph tagets are next
- ongoing work on the gameshell

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At the moment, we have 1 project underway in-house (contract to develop a prototype for a 3rd party) and have 2 other projects that are beginning development (one in-house IP and another contract for a protoype).

Creating this wide range of prototypes is being extremely helpful as we become more familiar with the engine ourselves and determine what BV's strong points are and where we can make improvements to the pipeline and engnie overall.

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A brief note about the Indie License - we ARE currently licensing BV to comercial developers - however in order for the toolkit to be truly useful to indie's that are used to an 'RF' type engine, there is quite a bit more work that is required. When you normally license an engnie like Source or Doom3, basically you get a dump of their source code, and that's about it. The job of turning it into 'your' game is pretty much up to you.

The more I work with Bv, the more I remember just how much work we put into RF to make it as flexible and powerful as it is - all using the same EXE. It's quite the achievement and is highly underrated for what it is.

With Torque or any other engine every single game that comes out with the engine is a completely different EXE with it's own customized features and/or code tree - with RF, we have dozens (literally) of games that could all theoretically use the same EXE (if they were all released at the same time.

the only real reason they can't is because we don't have the original art assets to rebuild the bsp's - the raw 3dt files and actors from the original RF release (back when it was called the Rabid Games Framework) could still be compiled and run with RF - i actually have some very old 3dt files kicking around (like my old ground zero game) that i did this with - it's funny seeing how much my level design skills with genesis/rf have improved over the years..

Anyways...RF developers should be very proud of what they have created - there isn't another engine like it in the world - and likely won't be for quite a while.

Cheers
Mike W
GDGi
http://www.gekidodesigns.com

[gekido]

Something else I forgot to mention - we just launched an updated Beyond Virtual website (http://www.beyondvirtual.com) with a new BV Logo, new look for the site created by Red Cell Creative.

I have also updated the Licensing page with more details on the various licensing packages that will be available for BV (pricing for the Indie licenses will be available soon).

the final update is that I have posted some screenshots from the updated renderer that we have been working on under the 'features' page as well as providing a more complete look at the feature list that is available for BV licensee's:

http://www.beyondvirtual.com/site/index ... atures.php

Cheers
Mike W
GDGi

[GD1]

i dont think anyone would really be bothered by your posting it here. I for one would welcome having a BV Dev Blog here. It's great to see the progress you guys are making!

i must admit, it is dissappointing that the mythical "RF2" we've been waiting for so long for is already available to commercial developers while the community has to sit and wait. but i do understand your need for cash. and i admire your ambition.

all this aside, one thing really bothers me. on the BV licensing page, it says that the indie license will have a "Beyond Virtual Startup Logo & Watermark" now the logo doesn't bother me, the watermark does. if you do this it will completely ruin things for indies. no one is gonna wanna pay $700 (the price on gamedev.net) for an indie license if they're gonna have to have a watermark at the bottom of the screen during gameplay or on screen captures. This will be especially hard for developers who want to develop with an indie license until they attract a publisher, as any screens they put out would make the publushers instantly say "They're using premade stuff and they have a low budget" and as a result most publishers wouldn't even look at us.

EDIT: ok, so maybe I was confused, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Does the Indie Runtime License remove the Watermark?

[QuestOfDreams]

posting news about other engines is no problem
just don't want to set up another extra forum yet...

[gekido]

The main difference between the development kit and the final runtime is that the development kit is specifically NOT for distribution.

How do we prevent this? By enforcing things like a startup and a very simple watermark. It's not like we're going to have a massive full screen semi-transparent watermark or something.

It will be basically a small HUD element (the bv logo) and the startup screen will specifically say 'not for distribution'. That's it. Nothing massive or hideous by any means.

it is dissappointing that the mythical "RF2" we've been waiting for so long for is already available to commercial developers while the community has to sit and wait. but i do understand your need for cash. and i admire your ambition.

In order to make a commercial game engine of the quality and capability that is required to create truly next-gen games, it absolutely requires a large development effort.

The only way to get this to happen in a short period of time is to be able to pay programmers to implement features.

In the old 'dot com' world, you could simply get Venture Capital financing and throw money away at programmers without caring about final products or breaking even, but this is not the direction we are going.

The other option (as opposed to getting large outside financing & giving up large percentages of the ownership of the company to shareholders), is to continue to develop the engine while we create projects, do contract programming and so on.

This is the ONLY way that we are going to be able to get this engine to both the level of quality and performance that we are looking for - PLUS get access to the consoles and dev kits that the indie's simply do not have access to - AND have the control over our company to even offer an indie version.

So to the people that think we're simply abandoning the indie community, it's the exact opposite case. We are doing this so that we actually have the funding to continue to pay developers to improve and get the engine where we want it to be.

We could do an indie version earlier than later, but quite frankly, it would be useless to 99.9% of the Reality Factory community because of the lack of programmers in the crowd. My goal is to get the engine to the point where the artists/designers that are looking for an advanced next-gen type tool can actually put together their own games, much like RF...

However getting the engine to that state takes a bit of time. I'd rather the indie version that we do release be ready AND actually useable by the indie's instead of just doing a source code dump on everyone like the garage games folks did and then sit around wondering why no one is actually making games with it.

It's a trade off, but it will be worth the wait.

[gekido]

Didn't realize that GameDev.net had posted the sponsors & prizes online yet.

For anyone that's interested, we are sponsoring the '4 Elements 4' contest that is undergoing on the GameDev.net site. You can win a license to the Beyond Virtual engine (we're not sure how they are going to award the prizes, to which winner etc) - for more details, check here:

http://www.gamedev.net/community/contest/4e4/

[GD1]

So to the people that think we're simply abandoning the indie community, it's the exact opposite case. We are doing this so that we actually have the funding to continue to pay developers to improve and get the engine where we want it to be.

i completely understand that Mike. i've specifically told several people that too. i probably worded what i said earlier wrong, but what i meant was that i understand and i'd do the same thing were i in your shoes, but that it still doesn't stop me from being anxious. and not in a bad way, just like the anxiousness you get when you parents say you can buy a video game but they want to go shopping for clothes first. you know you need the clothes, you just want that part of the shopping to be done so you can go buy your video game. it's just the anticipation that makes me nervous, thats all.

i wish you guys well with this, and i want you to know that you have (and always have had) my support and backing.

[Spyrewolf]

I too would love to know how you get on on the engine, i highly doubt anyone would be annoyed, we never have in the past, I mean when you were hosting the site all those years you never complained, and we posted nearly every free/comercial engine out there so telling you no would be rude actually

It will be basically a small HUD element (the bv logo) and the startup screen will specifically say 'not for distribution'. That's it. Nothing massive or hideous by any means.

that is actually very generous, you could have given us access to 3 entities and slapped a Pay only 4 easy payments on $9000.00 to unlock everything else, + it will help gain support for the engine basically this would mean we can produce a game then buy a liscence? no?

i know if i had the option to create a killer game then buy a liscence to release it to the world this would be the way to go.

pay developers to improve and get the engine where we want it to be.

Good move, best to start out small and work your way big!! this way you can get profit and stay out of the hole for longer, sometimes i think people can be a bit on the greedy side and want something for nothing, well we got RF for that,

Cool Gek' keep us posted, I am still keen on hearing how this all turns out best of luck.

[/quote]

[gekido]

basically this would mean we can produce a game then buy a liscence? no?

this is the exact reason why we are providing the indie license as it is currently designed - to give teams access to the same tools that the commercial licenses have, for an affordable price point.

for the low-price of the indie dev kit, you can begin your game's development - then once you have your game developed, you can decide if you need/want the commercial or indie runtime.

situation 1:
- if you have managed to get a publisher (ideal situation), then you have the ability to take your exact same game and insert the commercial runtime.

situation 2:
- if you don't have a publisher and decide to self-publish your game, then you can still do so with the indie runtime license. either way it is still cheaper than the other comparable 'indie' engines.

our motivation for providing the indie license is for 2 reasons:

1) get the tools into the hands of as many developers as possible. we want to make sure that the indie community has access to commercial-grade technology. especially with the next-gen games coming out, this is more important than ever.

2) this allows indie's to have the ability to port their games to consoles (as we add them) - you won't get a publisher these days unless you can tell them that your game is portable to other platforms, particularly consoles.

those that are looking to simply create indie titles and self-publish, then that option is there, but we are hoping that more innovative indie titles are able to be created and published as a result. the game industry is so stale these days - something has to change. we're hoping that BV is a way to trigger this change.

[wackedoutbiker]

This game engine has got to be a lot better than anything I've worked with if it truly is everything you say it is. When I saw that commercial developers had access and not indies, I didn't know what to think. But then I realized what it was for. Is the engine complete yet? If not, why is it being sold? (reminds me of those game boxes that are out there before the game is finished, and they are in a lot of electronics stores)