Alternate Opinion on RF2

Post by **AndyCR** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:33 pm

There has been an alternate opinion on RF2 posted over on the Genesis3D forums. He provides some interesting opinions of RF, RF2, and so on. The thread can be read here:

http://www.genesis3d.com/forum/viewtopi ... &forum=9&6

Post by **paradoxnj** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:09 pm

Just for clarification, although I am the project leader for the Jet3D engine, I did not sanction that post nor do my team or I know who the poster is.

I may not agree with some of the choices made, but I would not tolerate any of my team treating anyone in that manner because of them.

steven8 · Post by **steven8** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:45 pm

No, not interesting. Just horrible. Just horrible. I am so mad right now I could just burst! I thought a long time and marshalled myself before I posted. I had to post. I couldn't take it anymore, but I held myself in check as best I could. WhiteLyon has been a member of the Genesis3D community since 1998, and has a grand total of 277 posts to his credit. He is still a godling, and feels he can slander a good person like you, Andy who is trying so hard and working his butt off to make this community a better place for everyone. As I said, and still say, one of the saviours of this community.

I've been so happy about how things have been going over here. We're rockin'!! I can't believe he'd go and start that junk. Then, of course, Ran13, jumps right on his bandwagon. I've skimmed their board over the past few years, since coming to RF. All they do is sit over there and crab about jet3D and Destiny3D and WhiteLyon started this mile long thread about how unfair it was that he couldn't rip off professional musician's work without paying for it. That's the kind of stuff that really torques me off!!

I told him I darn well am an AndyCR zomibe, and I'll gladly follow you and Daniel right to the end of RF if that ever should happen. Because you are doing something truly great!!

I am signing off for the weekend. As I said in the signout thread, we are going to Pennsylvania for the weekend.

Andy, you just keep doing what you're doing. In your heart, you know it's the right thing. Follow your passions without distraction. WhiteLyon makes no good points whatsoever. People like him have been around since the beginning of time, trying to make themselves feel bigger by trying to tear down the truly good people.

Peace, my friends!! See you on Monday.

[Edit QuestOfDreams: keep calm, my friend, you're an RF moderator

]

Post by **AndyCR** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:35 am

Thanks for the support.

He has since removed his post; however, you can peice it together from the quotes in my post.

steven8 · Post by **steven8** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:49 am

The guy was wonkers! Totally off the wall. We'll always support you Andy. I'm working level 2 of The Dungeon to keep things moving. heading to bed soon, though. G'Nite!

Post by **bernie** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:27 am

Andy
Don't get upset about tossers like him. I'm with you all the way as I'm sure everyone else on this forum is. I only wish I had the talent to help you. I certainly wish to thank you for all your hard work, it's very much appreciated.

GD1 · Post by **GD1** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:25 pm

I have removed this post because my comments were innappropriate. I apologize to those who i have offended. I have always been offended by those who publicly condemn others work, but it appears that I have done so as well.

However, I still back Andy's decision to use Irrlicht, and wish people would stop complaining about it. I also wish people would quit asking him when its going to be done, all that does is slow him down to answer those posts.

LtForce · Post by **LtForce** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:00 pm

Dude, if someone would write sh*t like that on me I would kick his butt so hard, that ... you probably don't wanna know

P.S.: If you're going to kick his butt, just give me a PM, I'll come too

Allanon · Post by **Allanon** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:07 pm

the Jet3D developers have been talking trash about how one day their engine will be modern for several years. and yet it is still being updated to "compete" with "modern engines".

I wouldn't call it talking trash, just stating the goals of the Jet3d development team. I never put down others peoples efforts. We have only been working on the engine for a couple of years so I have no idea where you get several. Jet3d started out unfinished and full of bugs, we have spent most of our time fixing the bugs and finishing the engine. But in the two year we have been working on the engine there has been much progress such as a working D3D9 driver and we are in the final stages of being able to add material layers to the list of accomplishments. Jet3d started out in a lot of ways more handicapped than Genesis3d because of the bugs and untested code. We have made great strides to get it to the point it is at now. Remember the Jet3d developers do this in their free time and don't get paid. I think you misunderstand our excitement for Jet3d and the accomplishments we are making as talking trash. We just want others to come try and help with the development of the Jet3d engine.

their own braging belies their argument. Game engines are moving from "modern" engines like Source and Unreal 3 to "next-gen" engines like Crysis. And yet they want us to take a step back from a "modern" engine to an engine that has aspirations to be "modern". In today's world of game development, just wanting to be modern doesn't cut it for serious developers.

We are updating Jet3d using the latest techniques available to us. Not every new bell and whistle fits in to every engine. We are making a generic engine so adding special case features is counter productive to the goal of the engine. We also don't have the man power to add every new feature that emerges so we are stuck making a modern engine and not a "next gen" engine since we can not accurately target what a "next gen" engine will be. And not to put down the Irrlicht Engine but it is also not a "next-gen" engine and it can barely compete with the feature list of Source and Unreal 3.

so why dont they stop talking smack and contribute.

and please, don't take this as me trying to slam Jet3D. J3D is a good engine and I respect its developers. If you have a chance to check it out, then you should.

Note that I said developers and not programmers. We have around 3 or 4 programmers working on the engine. We have a programmer working on a game shell and the rest work on art, levels, models, quality assurance, management, etc. We do this in our spare time so progress is slow but we have made considerable progress in the couple of years we have been working.

And you're sending mixed messages, first you tell us to "stop talking smack" then turn around and state "J3D is a good engine and I respect its developers". And then you admit that you haven't even tested the engine. This is very contradictory.

people need to stop criticizing Andy. would you appreciate it if someone was standing over your shoulder constantly criticizing every development choice you make? no! He knows what he is doing and he chose Irrlicht for a reason, he chose Python for a reason. If you don't like that, then don't use the engine, no one is forcing you. Just because people do not follow your opinion doesn't make the wrong.

The Jet3d team and I have never criticized Andy for choosing the Irrlicht engine. I just posted reasons why RF should be ported to Jet3d. My reasons didn't criticize or put down Andy's choice of engine. It was QuestOfDreams who stated he didn't know why RF should be ported to Jet3d and I just gave him some reasons. I wish Andy luck and really don't care what engine he uses. But I still think RF should be ported to Jet3d, it would save us from having to split our resources building the engine and creating a RF like game shell.

BTW: My user name is Jeff on the Genesis3d and Jet3d message boards.

Post by **paradoxnj** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:47 pm

Allanon wrote: still think RF should be ported to Jet3d, it would save us from having to split our resources building the engine and creating a RF like game shell

According to QoD and Andy, as long as the RF license is honored, nothing stops us from doing so.

GD1 wrote: I'll stop right there. first of all, Irrlicht already is a modern engine. the Jet3D developers have been talking trash about how one day their engine will be modern for several years. and yet it is still being updated to "compete" with "modern engines".

Irrlicht may be modern, but it's missing an all important thing to the RF community...a toolset. Irrlicht is not artist friendly. For a community that consists of mainly artists, that is a bad thing. That is the only thing I have against Irrlicht or OGRE.

Python is just an ugly language and it's object oriented capabilities are limited. EOSScript or AngelScript are far superior to Python and would make the conversion simpler for people that are using RF1.

We do not "talk trash". What we advertise is either already done or currently being worked on. "Talking trash" signifies to me that we are "lying" to the community. We already have a stable and working DX9 driver and have had it for over 1.5 years. Our material system is already in place. We are currently making the material editor now to control the render states for the polys that use the materials. Also, the shader code is complete, but not yet integrated. We are using Microsoft's Effect Files as shaders. Jeff has written a Genesis3D to Jet3D BDY converter. Someone is also working on a map2j3d converter.

In summary, you should research and think before you speak.

GD1 wrote: so why dont they stop talking smack and contribute.

Simple answer to this one...we are working on Jet3D and have no time for another project. We prefer the subtractive style editing of Jet3D to the leak-prone BSP of Genesis 3D. We also prefer that our level designers have no compile time and programmers take advantage of the engine's plugin system (objects).

I don't know why you are attacking Jet3D, we had nothing to do with that post whatsoever.

Allanon · Post by **Allanon** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:01 pm

According to QoD and Andy, as long as the RF license is honored, nothing stops us from doing so.

That would still take programmers away from the Jet3d engine, the ideal situation would be someone from the RF community stepping up and porting RF to Jet3d. The Jet3d team will give them all the support they need and would even help with the port. But if this doesn't happen I guess we will be stuck with the decision to port RF ourselves or create our own RF like game shell.

GD1 · Post by **GD1** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:29 am

I sincerely apologize if my comments were taken as an attack on the Jet3D developers. I was mainly refering my remarks to the comments of the original poster of that thread who was criticizing andy's decision to use Irrlicht instead of Jet3D. I realize now that I misunderstood who that poster was and I apologize for that, especially to Allanon, who I had misunderstood as supporting that poster. I was upset because of what he had said and I let my feelings get the best of me.

Jet3D is a good engine. I tried it and liked it (I don't know where you got the impression that I had never tried it). But I didn't like it anymore than I currently like RF, which gave me no reason to switch over. However, any effort to develop an engine earns a great deal of respect from me, as I know that work that goes into it. I wasn't aware of the progress that had been made with DX9 and materials, but was still under the impression that Jet3D used a slightly modified Genesis engine, same as RF. I'm sorry I didn't research my arguments, but i was going on what i knew at the time.

I know you guys develop in your spare time, and I can respect that because so do I. but also, so do RF's developers. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see a version of RF for Jet3D, I would. In fact, I'd like to see RF ported to any engine because I know how versatile its toolset can be. but, RF's developers work in their spare time as well, so sadly we have to choose one engine to go with, and the powers that be picked Irrlicht.

In summary, you should research and think before you speak.

well put.

(BTW, i was NOT told to apologize by a moderator. I sincerely am sorry about what I said.)

Allanon · Post by **Allanon** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:55 am

GD1, no hard feelings. I was a little agitated that you came down so hard on Jet3d for no apparent reason and I did miss read your statement that said "If you have a chance to check it out, then you should." as "I haven't had a chance to check it out but I should." Guess I should read more carefully.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with whatever you are doing and hope you have success.

GD1 · Post by **GD1** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:43 am

no hard feelings

I wish the best of success to you and your team as well.

msx · Post by **msx** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:53 am

For some reason these people are trying to make RF sound bad, or put it down and now they are flaming RF2 which isn't even completed yet. I don't see them making there own game engine! I have to say I am very impressed with the work you all have done with RF and I know greater things will come of RF2. I was blown away to find out that Andy is ony 16!!! What talent you have for programming! I am very excited about all the goodness that will be in RF2 and I believe it will even surpass BV! Thanks to all the team members for taking the time to make this free product for those of us who are programming impaired (like myself, C language...it makes me cringe) and want to develop games. This really is a God send and I can't thank you all enough. I was going to try and port the Afterwards mod over to a new modified Quake 3 engine called Xreal but whenever I compile it I get so many errors it makes me wonder how that programmer managed to make an Xreal.exe! I stopped trying to fool with that engine since it was turning into a programming nightmare for me. I am able to build the Q3 source code into an .exe with only one warning and NO errors. So anyway I was thinking about giving up on that project and I just happened upon your site last night and spent about 3 hours reading through the forums to learn more about RF and it's capabilites and I am impressed. I was a bit shocked that it didn't have shader support given the fact that shaders have been around for the last 8 years that I am aware of, but hopefully they will be supported in RF2! =) I would also like to give you developers feedback on the new RF2 level editor. I have extensive familairity with Q3radiant, the level editor for Quake 3 and I have a little bit of experience with the Unreal 2k4 editor as well and I may can help in this area if you all need feedback from a developer. Keep the good work all!