Opinion's on modelling programs.

Topics relating to Modeling with Reality Factory.
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RageDeux
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Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by RageDeux » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:39 pm

Hey thanks for taking a look !

I have read through some of the post conserning the available programs and there ease of use.
I am going to round it off to 3 programs:
GMax , Milkshape 3D and anim8tor

More or less my question is what are the pro's and cons of these 3 program's ?
As i really dont want to try and learn all of them to find out that one dosent do this or that etc.

So in the Forum's opinion's what is the all round best , easy to use and RF's abillity to use.

Thank you for reading.
:)
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ardentcrest
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by ardentcrest » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:46 pm

most will say milkshape,

but for me its Deled
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bernie
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by bernie » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:39 pm

Wlcome to the Forum.
Well basically you have to consider which programs will export animated models in a format that can be used in RF. Milkshape can do that, 3dsMax, Gmax and Truespace also. I dont think there are any others at this stage. Milkshape is the easiest to learn and use. You need a mortgage to buy 3dsMax as the cost is so high aprox $3000. Gmax and truespace are Free so thats a point in their favour. Milkshape is quite reasonably priced at $30.
A lot of folk try different programs and then complain they can't get their models into RF, it doesn't make sense to do that. They might make a good model but if you cant get it to run in RF it is useless. Hope this helps.

Veleran
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Veleran » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:17 am

Max has the best interface,in other words Gmax if it still can be found on net.
Milkshape is known for the wide range of formats it can Import/Export.

If you want to make terrain,or high res models for normal maps,these things are hard to model,even in Gmax
without 3D Scupture tools.
You can do the basic model ,unwrap UVW and animations,in Gmax and export to a 3d scupture modeler
to shape it further and texture it with 3d painting.
After retouching,you can import it back in max and export to RF.

There is ARGILE from N-Sided Soft at 93 $,for retouching 3D models (low res UVW Mapped models),and is very easy to use,and the interface is pleasant to the eye.It has 3D Painting tools.
Yet,you need another modeler for have bones and animation,since this program is nt an animator.

I import in Argile .obj models,and retouch them with the 3D Scupture tools called "jelly brushes" to model details like muscles,the cheeks and eyes of a face,some and other details like serpent scutes,terrain,etc.
Then i export the .obj back to the another modeler,to ussually render normal maps.


http://www.n-sided.com/3D/argile.php?rub=1

You can take a look the manual.

http://www.n-sided.com/images/goodies/m ... 1.0_en.pdf

Terrain can be easily sculpted and textured in Argile
(as long as you have virgil in the scene to move him around and see if the elevations you sculpt are short enough for him to climb,or wide enough to walk through).

One of the most recent tools for modelling high res characters and other is to use brushes with alpha to deform or just paint wrinkles,veins,scales,scratches,grooves etc.


The ultimate 3d sculpture tool is autodesc mudmbox,needs a very strong computer and is unreachable to many as it is high priced,yet other modelers start to add similar tools.

Alpha brushes are common now as i said and very popular for high res modelling-like in Zbrush.You can make a search for Zbrush videos to see what i mean.
I dont have enough cpu and 3d card power to sculpt mesh details with alpha brushes (milions of polys are needed)
so in argile i paint the bumpmap directly on the model,see how it looks in realtime from various angles and lightning and then,argile can convert it to a normal map.

The brush tools have a color and a mask.
You can paint to the bumpmap either with texture for colors,and use alpha mask to the brush-or
just use rgb for color (no texture) and aplha.

So if you want the bumps to dent,you set the Rgb color to zero/black,and when you want the bumps to emboss you set the color to white.
I propose to use texture instead of rgb,so you can use it better as a diffuse too.
export the bumpmap,and drag/copy it from the folder it s been saved,over to the diffuse if you want the bumpmap patterns to match with the diffuse.

If you get Argile,and load your own alpha masks for the paint brush,make sure you organize them in folders with names like "Barks" or "skin" or "cloth" or "pattern" because you will possibly need many masks.
The alpha bitmaps are located at the user documents in the N-Sided folder.

There is an option that helps fixing any uvw seams,so the paint will cross to the other side of the map and cover the seam.

If the texture still does nt tile,you load a background image with the texture you want the object to have on the seams
and as you paint the model (you can adjust the opacity to a darker color level to see the map behind it),
whatever is on the background behind the brush tool will appear on the mesh.

You load an image to each side (one side at a time) top,left,right,bottom,front,paint across the seams and you re done.
The good thing is that you can move,scale and rotate the background image whenever you want,so the texture wont look repeated.
Its something like projection painting.

I suppose anyone modelling with this program will read this and more in its manual.

Another nice is that the brush can be as large as 1024 size.
Last edited by Veleran on Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Veleran
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Veleran » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:01 pm

Does he look familiar?
Its the third day i model with Argile,and i tesselated and exported hastily Virgil from Max,anxious to make experiments to him in Sculpture studio and the jelly brushes.

I played with virgil for few hours and i dont say i can controll the tools yet,but you can get an idea from the pic.
The mesh was rough,and i did nt touch the arms or the face yet,but even ugly as he became from the random added quad subdivisions,he s still recognisable,-dont you think?

Image
By veleran at 2009-02-02


Image
By veleran at 2009-02-02

Veleran
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Veleran » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:48 pm

This argile is cheap,but you cant always work with only one or two modelers.
older Mudbox version 1 works on older computers.It is a good modeler for making bump maps.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudbox

To take a peek at mudbox work,this is the Mudbox area of the best 3d graphics forums

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... e=10&pp=15

Dont worry,you dont model polygons by hand for these details.
There are stamp tools that deform the model with few mouse clicks.

Example:To add embossed gear to a Bio suit vest,you make a grayscale bump map brush that is black at the border,with some bright plates,pipes and gear in the middle of the midmap.The brighter values will emboss-or dent the model.
You can crop photos to copy details and use them as gray alphas.This can be any texture:Bark,skin wrinkles from real people photos,
metal plates displacement maps and so on.

The procedure is this.

1.Make a clean model in gmax or wherever with correct planar uvw mapping.

2.You want add normal bump maps to it,so you make a high poly to be later compared with the low-poly and render the normal maps.

3.Load the low poly in Mudbox where you can have various polycount levels in layers (1,2,3 etc)
There you model in 3d by painting with 3d sculpture tools,
Export a grayscale bumpmap,the diffuse and whatever else you made.

4.GO to Argile and 3D and paint the model.

4.You convert the bumpmap to normal map,export the model to rf and open equity or actor studio to
the normal bump mapping as extra materials.

Normaly you displace the high poly model with the grayscale bump maps Mudbox renders,
and the modeler compares the low to the high poly to render you the normal maps but,i dont know if your modeler does this,so
but you can also convert the bump map of Mudbox to a dot3 tangent normal bump map in a converter tool and use it in RF.
Last edited by Veleran on Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Allanon
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Allanon » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:52 pm

Veleran, why you posting links to pirated software? Don't you know game developers don't like software piracy? You do know that you have just opened yourself up to a lawsuit if you release a game that uses a model that was built with this software?

Veleran
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Veleran » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:15 pm

I ll edit the post then.Even if noone can find out with what tools you created anything.
How is that you might have paid around 3500 $ for max and have nt bought some game engine yet-you like rf that much?

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Juutis
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Juutis » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:40 pm

Veleran wrote:I ll edit the post then.Even if noone can find out with what tools you created anything.
Ok, first of all, you're one of those 'it ain't illegal if I don't get caught' guys, right? That's crap.
Secondly, you should read the forum rules. They clearly say:
3. Absolutely no warez or porn allowed.
Veleran wrote:How is that you might have paid around 3500 $ for max and have nt bought some game engine yet-you like rf that much?
Gotta admit that I also wonder how many 3DS Max users there are out there... :o
But nobody was talking about 3DS Max anyway.


On topic: With RF1, definitely MilkShape. It has all you need and it's affordable.
Pain is only psychological.

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RageDeux
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by RageDeux » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:14 pm

well guy's did not expect so many reply's !

Keep it coming for now im still unsure i have a trial version of milk shape 3D
(it's ok accept having to select face of vertex evry minute) is there no short cut for selecting?

Any way on top of that i got a copy of Gmax from Turbo squid accept i keep getting an error trying to run it ?

Some thing about 3D rendering and error in H command ? (any idea's ?)

Thanks !

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Veleran
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Veleran » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:03 am

Dont worry-read some instructions there and fix it.


http://www.turbosquid.com/Forum/Index.c ... adID/16358

In Gmax when you want to select many faces,turn on "by vertex" in the Selection rollout of edit Mesh
so if 5 polygons touch the same vertex,you click that vertex to select all five polygons and save time
-hold down ctrl key to select multiple.

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paradoxnj
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by paradoxnj » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:52 am

Veleran, I issued you a warning about the warez posting. Next one will result in a temporary ban.
Many Bothans died to bring you this signature....

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RageDeux
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by RageDeux » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:25 am

Thank you veleren working like a charm now. :D

(allready uninstalled Milkshape 3D) !Edited! (I might actually use milkshape) , interface is more freindly :)

well onwards and upwards !

On a further note im guessing that argile is going to be better for someone who has a (more) modern Pc ?

I have the i Max from packardbell:
Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual CPU E2160 @ 1.80GHz, 1800 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 2 Logical Processor(s)
With NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS card.
Last edited by RageDeux on Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Veleran
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by Veleran » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:15 pm

You re ok with that machine.The program it self could be faster,but it has some tips for improving speed to old computers in the manual.
It says that if you switch of c-lines (the edged view) the performance is better,
Also in the display preferences untick these:
advanced triangulation,Use Vbo,Degrade mode,environmental mapping.

Take a look at the manual page 96 -1.1 The General Display Preferences.

There s no need to use very high polycount.Any high res models you may see in quidam format are for movies or illustrations.Anyway Gmax cant render normalmaps-can it?

If you work on models for movies use up to 50000 faces for each and you re ok.

So in Argile you ll be working on low-res models (higher performance speed) and 3D paint nice bump maps on them,
since you wont need to make a very high poly model to compare it to the low res version to render normal maps this way.

If you want normal bump mapping you will paint them in Argile directly to the bump map,turn on the "Make nomal map"button in Argile and,when you leave the bump map tab painting,the bumpmap is auto converted to normalmap-nice.

And i guess you already have the exporters for gmax.

http://www.realityfactory.info/cms/inde ... -exporters

You might want to modify existing models.

I saw there some models in quidam .obj format which argile imports/exports.

- http://www.sharecg.com/v/27506/3D-Model/Human-Girl

You can search and find there any meshes you can import and later adjust skeletons to them.
Just know that facial animations with splines and dummies (invisible helper geometry) dont export in Rf.
For the moment i assume you ll be improvising with the 3d painting changing colors and bump to the meshes.

http://www.sharecg.com/v/29264/3D-Model/Human-Girl-III

http://www.sharecg.com/v/31673/3D-Model/Girl
There are other meshes there,browse and you might find more.Just make sure you see in the pic previews that they re textured.
There is a possibile many stuff have no uvw mapping coordinates.

And something else:
gGme characters now more often have clothing and accesories as seperate attached meshes,and it is easier and better looking to model characters this way.
Yet- there is no player script available with the commands to attach the accesories on him.

Untill such script is out,you can unify the multi part characters in gmax.
Before that,first paint in Argile each object seperately (it is easier that way),and when finished import all parts in Gmax,attach the clothing to the main character,delete the unseen faces and then export to RF.
Last edited by Veleran on Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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RageDeux
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Re: Opinion's on modelling programs.

Post by RageDeux » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:04 pm

Just a quick one !

what if i used Milkshape 3D for a modell can that Argile import it for re-touching , skinning ?

i have been playing round with Gmax for a few hours now i have to say it's way more complicated than Milkshape.
(i cant even figure it out :? where as in milkshape i made a mech yesterday)

im planing on moddeling a few diffrent type of mechanoids for a game idea (Arena based combat) mech warrior
(But that will be a diffrent topic when i thought it through more)

Look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPlXXUhtVqc

So basically could i use milkshape with argile ?

..............................
Some say i have a short attention span i say it's just HEY LOOK a rabbit......

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