Windows vista and RF

[bernie]

Will Rf work on windows vista???
I came upon this today.

Below is a selection from a much longer article
Part of which is found here http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/p ... a_cost.txt

Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support
-------------------------------------------

In order to prevent the creation of hardware emulators of protected output
devices, Vista requires a Hardware Functionality Scan (HFS) that can be used
to uniquely fingerprint a hardware device to ensure that it's (probably)
genuine. In order to do this, the driver on the host PC performs an operation
in the hardware (for example rendering 3D content in a graphics card) that
produces a result that's unique to that device type.

In order for this to work, the spec requires that the operational details of
the device be kept confidential. Obviously anyone who knows enough about the
workings of a device to operate it and to write a third-party driver for it
(for example one for an open-source OS, or in general just any non-Windows OS)
will also know enough to fake the HFS process. The only way to protect the
HFS process therefore is to not release any technical details on the device
beyond a minimum required for web site reviews and comparison with other
products.
Elimination of Unified Drivers
------------------------------

The HFS process has another cost involved with it. Most hardware vendors have
(thankfully) moved to unified driver models instead of the plethora of
individual drivers that abounded some years ago. Since HFS requires unique
identification and handling of not just each device type (for example each
graphics chip) but each variant of each device type (for example each stepping
of each graphics chip) to handle the situation where a problem is found with
one variation of a device, it's no longer possible to create one-size-fits-all
drivers for an entire range of devices like the current
Catalyst/Detonator/ForceWare drivers. Every little variation of every device
type out there must now be individually accommodated in custom code in order
for the HFS process to be fully effective.

If a graphics chip is integrated directly into the motherboard and there's no
easy access to the device bus then the need for bus encryption (see
"Unnecessary CPU Resource Consumption" below) is removed. Because the
encryption requirement is so onerous, it's quite possible that this means of
providing graphics capabilities will suddenly become more popular after the
release of Vista. However, this leads to a problem: It's no longer possible
to tell if a graphics chip is situated on a plug-in card or attached to the
motherboard, since as far as the system is concerned they're both just devices
sitting on the AGP/PCIe bus. The solution to this problem is to make the two
deliberately incompatible, so that HFS can detect a chip on a plug-in card vs.
one on the motherboard. Again, this does nothing more than increase costs and
driver complexity.

Further problems occur with audio drivers. To the system, HDMI audio looks
like S/PDIF, a deliberate design decision to make handling of drivers easier.
In order to provide the ability to disable output, it's necessary to make HDMI
codecs deliberately incompatible with S/PDIF codecs, despite the fact that
they were specifically designed to appear identical in order to ease driver
support and reduce development costs.

Denial-of-Service via Driver Revocation
---------------------------------------

Once a weakness is found in a particular driver or device, that driver will
have its signature revoked by Microsoft, which means that it will cease to
function (details on this are a bit vague here, presumably some minimum
functionality like generic 640x480 VGA support will still be available in
order for the system to boot). This means that a report of a compromise of a
particular driver or device will cause all support for that device worldwide
to be turned off until a fix can be found. Again, details are sketchy, but if
it's a device problem then presumably the device turns into a paperweight once
it's revoked. If it's an older device for which the vendor isn't interested
in rewriting their drivers (and in the fast-moving hardware market most
devices enter "legacy" status within a year of two of their replacement models
becoming available), all devices of that type worldwide become permanently
unusable.

The threat of driver revocation is the ultimate nuclear option, the crack of
the commissars' pistols reminding the faithful of their duty [Note B]. The
exact details of the hammer that vendors will be hit with is buried in
confidential licensing agreements, but I've heard mention of multimillion
dollar fines and embargoes on further shipment of devices alongside the driver
revocation mentioned above.

Now where does this leave RF ? It looks to me like the end of the road unless we all go LINUX and even then will we be able to get the graphics cards that will work on Linux? or do we have to stick with what we have got and hope the cards do not break down.


__________________

[psYco]

Wait this doesnt look like RF itself will stop working on Vista? But yes there will be a change soon where we must all buy the highly priced (but hugely more powerful) DirectX 10 cards, witch will be fullly compatible with vista and all the nextgen games that will come out FOR vista, also (from reading PCG) ive heard that these cards should be backwards compatible with older games and so should work with RF...

Again i may be wrong and that IS worrying.

[scott]

if this is the case then who will buy windows vista, i know people still on 98, xp is going to be here for some time, and im not planing to change to vista any time soon, i belive microsoft are aiming vista at new pc's so then you would buy the required hardware with it, but i belive as long as you still have windosw xp, me or what ever reality factory will survive.

i just got a new laptop over £800 its got windows xp media edition, im not planing to go pay another load of cash just to get vista who would? xp works, hell 98 works fine most the time

so yea its stupid and anoying but im not woried.

[AndyCR]

I don't see how this would affect RF. Note that I do not plan to "up"grade to vista, but then again I rarely run any version of windows.

[bernie]

Well I still run win 2k. I got a new computer which runs on XP pro a couple of months back but I intend to ditch XP and put win 2k on that one too. I can't be doing with having to register every time I add new hardware or reinstall the OS. I never had any intention of going vista. In fact I am toying with the Idea of Linux but it seems too complicated to add new progs (I have tried installing Redhat & Mandrake in the past but some of the hardware didn't work). However that's not the worry.
My worry is that the new graphics cards will only work on vista and definately NOT on Linux or Mac. They make it quite clear that the manufacturers of graphics cards MUST keep secret the way they work and any drivers not recognised by vista will just simply be rejected. This looks like an attempt to force everyone to use Msoft or Stick with ageing graphics cards. Once they become faulty you won't be able to buy a new card which will work on older systems and therfore you will have to upgrade to vista or give up computing.
I just hope I am misreading something or that the card manufacturers will produce cards for Linux machines seperately.

[Jay]

It's more about OpenGL (Open-Source) vs. DirectX (Microsoft). They plan to take over the world with their DirectX by making OpenGL useless.

OpenGL will be useless on Windows Vista because it is somehow stulped 'over' DirectX and will be working like an interpreted programming language. As we all know this kills performance.

I don't think this is very gentle of Microsoft.

(That's not in the section you showed us, but it fits to the "Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support " section)

[AndyCR]

In integrated graphics (non ati or nvidia) such as Intel's "Extreme" graphics, then yes, OpenGL runs interpreted as Direct3D, just like Direct3D runs on GNU/Linux (using wine) by virtue of being reinterpreted to OpenGL during runtime. Yes, the performance is lowered some; in fact, Microsoft took it one step further and made it so shaders would not work in this mode.

However, if you have any sort of a decent graphics card (nvidia or ati), the drivers they provide stop this action and allow you to run OpenGL natively.

[paradoxnj]

They plan to take over the world with their DirectX by making OpenGL useless.

OpenGL will be useless on Windows Vista because it is somehow stulped 'over' DirectX and will be working like an interpreted programming language. As we all know this kills performance.

That is not true. OpenGL will work the same way on Vista as it did on XP. Through ICDs. Your video card manufacturer will have to provide an ICD to enable OpenGL on Windows Vista. Most video card companies provide that standard these days. So there is no worries.

http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3760

in fact, Microsoft took it one step further and made it so shaders would not work in this mode

Shaders would not work on those cards anyways. Most of those internal cards support shader model 1.1. Vista is eliminating shader model 1 and making it use v2 or above which is a good move IMO. All new cards that are coming out are shader model 3 and above. They are also coming down in price so anyone will be able to buy a shader model 3 card.

I've had Vista since Beta 1 and to tell you the truth, I love it. It is more of a resource hog than XP, but when you play games, it shuts down the desktop so those resources are back in the pool. Even Linux has grown in minimum specs. Try running Fedora Core on anything less than a P4. The computer world is getting larger. In order to bring us all the cool technology, the minimum specs have to be raised. Give a little...take a little.

[AndyCR]

Shaders would not work on those cards anyways. Most of those internal cards support shader model 1.1. Vista is eliminating shader model 1 and making it use v2 or above which is a good move IMO. All new cards that are coming out are shader model 3 and above. They are also coming down in price so anyone will be able to buy a shader model 3 card.

Very true, though I would hope Intel will be bringing out integrated graphics with shader model 2 at least soon, if for nothing else than fear of ATI gaining integrated chip dominance.

EDIT: Have they already? I seem to recall hearing GMA950's can run Aero.

[Jay]

I apologize for giving false data. I have not known this. Thanks for the correction.

[psYco]

So basically the point is that most new games are gonna be made with DX10 witch requires a new GFX card, these cards will then only work on Vista? W8 i think im confused...

never mind im going to be a good little consumer and do what ever microsoft (all hail the corporate giant) tell me, so it doesnt matter...

[GD1]

So let me get this straight. If some kind of loophole is found in a device that allows it to be used with a different driver besides the one approved by Microsoft, then that device will cease to function on Windows Vista for EVERYONE worldwide!? So i could go out and spend $600 on a GFX card, just to have Microsoft disable it the next day. Even if functionality would return when a fix was found, do you realize how incredibly inconvenient this would be? This is worse than freakin' Half-Life 2 and Steam. And with all the little issues Internet Explorer has had, I don't see how MS has any business punishing everyone else for writing a program that hackers can mess with.

And if I understand correctly, without HDMI we can't be HDCP compliant. So by disabling all HDMI support, Vista will kill any ability to run Hi-Def movies, correct?

I find this extremely distasteful, especially coming from a company owned by a man started his career with a form of software piracy.

[paradoxnj]

So basically the point is that most new games are gonna be made with DX10 witch requires a new GFX card, these cards will then only work on Vista? W8 i think im confused...

If you have a shader model v2 or above card, it will work just fine with DX10. No need to buy a new one. Just make sure you download the latest drivers from your manufacturer.

GD1 - OpenGL is setup this way on XP also. Most video card manufacturers install their ICD with their driver installation program. It's transparent to you and will always be that way. Microsoft actually listened to the community with this and did as they asked. They've changed their ways when it comes to operating system development. No more "release it now then release 7 service packs later to fix all issues". XP only had 2 service packs. Big improvement from Windows 2000's 4 service packs and Windows NT's 7.

Vista will be very GL friendly as XP is now. No matter what the Open Source snobs say, the performance problems with OpenGL is caused by GL, not Windows. You have the same problems on a Mac or a Linux box.

FYI...DX10 also says bye-bye to the fixed function pipeline. Your game MUST use shaders to render or it will not work. They've included fixed function emulation, but at an FPS price.

[AndyCR]

If you have a shader model v2 or above card, it will work just fine with DX10. No need to buy a new one.

Hmm. When nVidia advertises the GeForce 8800's as being the only current DX10 compatible cards, they are lying? (Wouldn't surprise me, but still seems odd)

No matter what the Open Source snobs say

Find it odd for the leader of an open source project to call his users snobs. (Unless your just referring to the more hardcore Open Source people, in which case I'm happy to be called a snob.)

[paradoxnj]

Hmm. When nVidia advertises the GeForce 8800's as being the only current DX10 compatible cards, they are lying? (Wouldn't surprise me, but still seems odd)

I never said fully compatible. Aeroglass will work in 3D mode though. The older cards cannot gain membership to the "Vista Logo Program" because they do not follow some of the new standards Microsoft applied to hardware vendors. They will work without issue, they just don't have Vista certification. I am running Vista with a GeForce FX 5800 and it runs beautifully.

Open Source snobs = People who think no other software should exist but open source software. No offense meant to you or anyone else. These are the people who say "Microsoft sucks because Windows is closed source" or "OpenGL is better than DX because they publish their designs and we can really see how GL works" or "Star Office is better than MS Office"...you get the idea.

I lead the Jet3D project which is open source, but I believe that certain software should be closed source. I love free software just as much as the next person, but some paid software is just plain better. I'm an avid user of The GIMP and Audacity. However, I cannot use Audacity for certain things which is why I purchased Cubase SX.