Hey everyone. Great screens lately and hats off to wxb1 for getting DOT3 onto world geometry.
Anyways, me, I just got out of the hospital from having my Spleen removed. It was the cure to a rare blood condition I have been suffering from for the last six months. Just mentioning it because although it is a very common operation, I found it difficult to find others who also went through it. So, if you find yourself in the same situation and need to have your Spleen removed for some reason or another, my advice to you is... no worries, you'll make it through. (Just be sure you get enough pain killers! Damn I'm hurting!)
Ok, with that aside on to the thread... Does anyone know HLSL? I mean, if an engine demanded that you write HLSL effects, could you write them?
And.....
If you can, what are you? ie, a texture artist, modeller, a programmer?
I'm asking because I've been given a 'lecture' from a friend recently, who was convinced that HLSL was a bad thing, because it didn't really suit the right people who needed to use it. (ie artists and modellers) He says that an engine based on effects, should allow the user to simply select a predefined effect that is already a part of the program. (Did you know that Half Life 2 uses over 1200 shaders!) One other thing that he felt strongly about was the need for the engine to determine device caps and not the maker of the game. 'Focus on assets' was his underlying point.
Obviously, this all made me think of RF. Which really does allow a person to 'focus on assets' and gameplay. Maybe I'm thinking wrong here and compromising ease of use with versatilty? How easy to use should a game engine be?
Anyways, I'll listen to anything right now. I need to 'wrap' some thought around this and RF users are definetely the best people to ask in light of the question. Anything?
Does anyone know HLSL or DirectX? (Or if you have no Spleen)
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psychopath
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I don't know HLSL or DirectX, but I do know GLSL and OpenGL, but that's only because I'm a programmer. I don't think you'll find too many modelers and artists that will know HLSL.
My advice, would be to have predefined shaders and effects, but leave the option to load custom shaders for those who can write HLSL.
My advice, would be to have predefined shaders and effects, but leave the option to load custom shaders for those who can write HLSL.
Glad you survived, what are you going to vent now that
your spleen is gone? I downloaded Render Monkey, it
has HLSL, all I know is it's code that makes eye candy, the
last 2 letters are 'shading language', no reason or desire to
learn this. The only useful thing in Render Monkey for RF users
is the normal map maker.
your spleen is gone? I downloaded Render Monkey, it
has HLSL, all I know is it's code that makes eye candy, the
last 2 letters are 'shading language', no reason or desire to
learn this. The only useful thing in Render Monkey for RF users
is the normal map maker.
hmm... Ok that's cool. The same was said by shadow who I just got off the phone with. Rmeeber him? He's doing great.
So, I think everyone is very right here. By giving the ability for people who do not know HLSL, to simply choose an effect to use and preview it and get machine applicable data about it, these good folks would alos be able to use the engine and still make their levels 'look pretty'.
Here's the conclusion..
- A person can spend more time on looks and gameplay if they spend less time on code.
- The engine should tell the user 'what is required'. For example, if i tell specify Bump Mapping, it should let me tell me what other textures I require for the model and automatically ask for the best technique but dumb itself down as required by the card.
-At the same time, the engine MUST handle all lighting and shadows on it's own with very little input from the user.
Thanks all.
So, I think everyone is very right here. By giving the ability for people who do not know HLSL, to simply choose an effect to use and preview it and get machine applicable data about it, these good folks would alos be able to use the engine and still make their levels 'look pretty'.
Here's the conclusion..
- A person can spend more time on looks and gameplay if they spend less time on code.
- The engine should tell the user 'what is required'. For example, if i tell specify Bump Mapping, it should let me tell me what other textures I require for the model and automatically ask for the best technique but dumb itself down as required by the card.
-At the same time, the engine MUST handle all lighting and shadows on it's own with very little input from the user.
Thanks all.
hey dan glad you're alright. sorry to hear you had to go through it and worse yet now you can't say "oh, my spleen!" guess the old fall back, "my achin back" will have to do. (edited by moderator, if you know your not supposed to and leave a note for a moderator to feel free to edit it, why post it in the first place?) [edited by pete: oh please. it wasn't that bad! besides hoped dan got a laugh before you deleted]
i agree with psycho... have a standard set of shaders for non-programmers to choose from with a load custom shader slot. and yeah you need to have a fallback routine for weak cards. unity has a pretty cool approach to all this (it's a mac app). 2 cents...
http://otee.dk/unity.html
i agree with psycho... have a standard set of shaders for non-programmers to choose from with a load custom shader slot. and yeah you need to have a fallback routine for weak cards. unity has a pretty cool approach to all this (it's a mac app). 2 cents...
http://otee.dk/unity.html
Oh man, it got moderated before I read it. Hope it was funny anyways.
wxb1, Big Thanks for the good words buddy! I didn't see you around the forums much lately and thought you may have forgotten it like some of the other verteran users. Great to see you're still adding these awesome features.
Let me also say thanks for everyones feedback on this project of mine over the last few months. I'm going to restart it again, (this will be over a half dozen times so far) today but with a new theory of how it should be designed This is the new idea:
- It already tries to be as RF like as it can, but honestly I'm having lots of trouble making a world editor. (Lack of MFC programming skills. Don't worry I'll get it.) But ow it should also have a script system for AI that is made using graphical flow charts. SOmehting similar to the method used by Flash. This way, even the need for scripting is removed.
- It will have no scriptable interface to the fixed function pipleine. It only uses FX files that are either preloaded or added by the user. It will instead use a fixed function setup file though. (No Logic)
-Evrything is added in the world editor. No modifying of text files.
-Shadows and lighting is handled by the engine strictly. (Man tha'ts gonna hurt.)
Man, anyways, I'll take any suggestions as to how the wrodl editor should be put together. I've been going for the nice Genesis World Editor look. (Having alot of trouble though) Any links to some online tuts would be a great help. This time, I think I will start the world editor before the engine. Otherwise, I add new features as scriptable commands, when many of them shoul djust be added through a world file. The world editor is the most critical part of the engine. Especially with a system that has to mimic the useablity of RF.
Anyways, all this talking latley has been due to the painkillers. Thanks all for listening to my ramblings. LOL
wxb1, Big Thanks for the good words buddy! I didn't see you around the forums much lately and thought you may have forgotten it like some of the other verteran users. Great to see you're still adding these awesome features.
Let me also say thanks for everyones feedback on this project of mine over the last few months. I'm going to restart it again, (this will be over a half dozen times so far) today but with a new theory of how it should be designed This is the new idea:
- It already tries to be as RF like as it can, but honestly I'm having lots of trouble making a world editor. (Lack of MFC programming skills. Don't worry I'll get it.) But ow it should also have a script system for AI that is made using graphical flow charts. SOmehting similar to the method used by Flash. This way, even the need for scripting is removed.
- It will have no scriptable interface to the fixed function pipleine. It only uses FX files that are either preloaded or added by the user. It will instead use a fixed function setup file though. (No Logic)
-Evrything is added in the world editor. No modifying of text files.
-Shadows and lighting is handled by the engine strictly. (Man tha'ts gonna hurt.)
Man, anyways, I'll take any suggestions as to how the wrodl editor should be put together. I've been going for the nice Genesis World Editor look. (Having alot of trouble though) Any links to some online tuts would be a great help. This time, I think I will start the world editor before the engine. Otherwise, I add new features as scriptable commands, when many of them shoul djust be added through a world file. The world editor is the most critical part of the engine. Especially with a system that has to mimic the useablity of RF.
Anyways, all this talking latley has been due to the painkillers. Thanks all for listening to my ramblings. LOL
is it going to be open source?
RF2 site: http://realityfactory2.sourceforge.net/
RF2 tasks: http://sourceforge.net/pm/?group_id=179085
RF2 tasks: http://sourceforge.net/pm/?group_id=179085
Hey AndyCR, what's up?
Not exactly, you can purchase the source if you want to make changes that require it, but the source itself won't be free like the engine. Basically, the sales model is like this: the engine, examples and the docs are free, but a book, video tutorials and the source will be for sale. I think that's fair enough.
Not exactly, you can purchase the source if you want to make changes that require it, but the source itself won't be free like the engine. Basically, the sales model is like this: the engine, examples and the docs are free, but a book, video tutorials and the source will be for sale. I think that's fair enough.
oh, lots of things, some of them good and others bad. rf2 is coming well, though a bit slowly lately (just got over a cold and got back from a trip, need to take another trip in a week). after that rf2 should come alot quicker.
ah. i was going to say, if it's for free to all, people wont like having to have a specialized compiler to compile mfc, but if they can afford the source, they can afford a compiler that supports mfc.
sounds like a good sales model, give them the stuff they want free yet for a price still allow them room for growth. sounds like a kind of "learn game dev with freevector, then, when you get advanced at it, buy the source and modify it to your needs", the product grows with you kind of thing.
ah. i was going to say, if it's for free to all, people wont like having to have a specialized compiler to compile mfc, but if they can afford the source, they can afford a compiler that supports mfc.
sounds like a good sales model, give them the stuff they want free yet for a price still allow them room for growth. sounds like a kind of "learn game dev with freevector, then, when you get advanced at it, buy the source and modify it to your needs", the product grows with you kind of thing.
RF2 site: http://realityfactory2.sourceforge.net/
RF2 tasks: http://sourceforge.net/pm/?group_id=179085
RF2 tasks: http://sourceforge.net/pm/?group_id=179085
Well almost a year later, Free Vector is almost complete. It just needs a few bugs worked out and the addition of shadow mapping for skinned meshes. In any case. It is much easier to use then before, needing only a modeling package and an image editor to create levels. It is %100 percent FX based with zero buffer locking during runtime. It needs no compilation, just like RF and handles everything through ini files and scripts. (Just like RF) It still has a scriptable interface to the fixed funcion pipeline, but I decided to make it 100% FX based so that the engine can grow with GPU technology. The FX files are 'open' to the user so that they can alter the base effects or create new effects like hatching and toon editing. 'Out of the box' it requires PS 2.0 capable cards but the efects can be modified to support simpler carsd as well. The base effects include bump mapping and parrallax mapping, HDR bloom and glow defined through the alpha channel, dynamic per pixel lighting, shadow mapping and a 'style effect' texture which incorporates an ambient occlusion map, a specular map, a variable color map and the defined glow map, for pawns and 'world objects.' It has a scriptable particle system which has support for image blending and animating with zero vertex buffer locking. The engine iteself is basically and outdoor engine with per poly collision support for the terrain and 'world objects'. Pawns use per bone bounding boxes for collision and have scriptable IK and ragdoll commands. Other built in effects include physical objects, forest ie. tree, building or rocks or whatever model you like, entities, grass patches made from terrain 'shells', a foliage particle entity, pawns, players, particles and lights. In any case, I think it's time to download FRAPS and start to share some screens for feedback.
Good to be back.
Good to be back.
Welcome back! Yes, you don't know me but I know you! 
Teeheehee, I'm stalking people....
And now to the serious things:
So, what is this 'Free Vector', anyway ? Like a game development software similar to RF? It sure sounds powerful!
And if this thing is released soon, I might have a tough decision to make! Whether to learn this new and most likely more powerful engine or stick with RF. That is, if it will be free as you seem to have promised last year.
Well anyway, it's great news!!
Teeheehee, I'm stalking people....
And now to the serious things:
So, what is this 'Free Vector', anyway ? Like a game development software similar to RF? It sure sounds powerful!
And if this thing is released soon, I might have a tough decision to make! Whether to learn this new and most likely more powerful engine or stick with RF. That is, if it will be free as you seem to have promised last year.
Well anyway, it's great news!!
Pain is only psychological.
Hey Pickles
As Juutis you probably dont know me but I have actually been lurking for quite a few years
Would love to hear some news about Free Vector! I am currently user of Beyond Virtual (By Gekidos, who I remember you ran quite unclear with to put it nicely ) but I am not too happy about it. Consequently I am looking for better alternatives
If you got any screenies or videos to show along with some details of estimated realease dates and so forth that would be really cool.
If you need help creating a tech demo of some sort please feel free to contact me. I am planning on putting together a very small environment in BV but if Free Vector is a better option to me I may be interested switching engine.
You can see some of the models I am doing for the demo here:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... 9&t=475290
and here
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... etaway+car
Basically it will be a very small scene containing a beach and a couple of buildings. The cars will be in the scene as well as the monkey mobster. As it is atm. this will be the only character and will just be standing there in an idle position as I have set myself late may as the deadline. The demo can then be expanded on but currently I am trying to really limit the workload in order to actually finish the god damn thing.
In the longer run maybe Free Vector could base my Final year project for my BA Games Art degree as well. Was planning to use BV for this (doing my current scene as a preparation for next year) but if FreeVector is a better alternative I would be happy to shift.
Let me know if you are interested. Its just an offer and if you are not interested that is perfectly fine, then I'll just do it in BV. You can contact me at copenhagenjazz ( at) gmail dot com
Anyways, just some info on Free Vector would be nice.
Cheers
As Juutis you probably dont know me but I have actually been lurking for quite a few years
Would love to hear some news about Free Vector! I am currently user of Beyond Virtual (By Gekidos, who I remember you ran quite unclear with to put it nicely
) but I am not too happy about it. Consequently I am looking for better alternativesIf you got any screenies or videos to show along with some details of estimated realease dates and so forth that would be really cool.
If you need help creating a tech demo of some sort please feel free to contact me. I am planning on putting together a very small environment in BV but if Free Vector is a better option to me I may be interested switching engine.
You can see some of the models I am doing for the demo here:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... 9&t=475290
and here
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... etaway+car
Basically it will be a very small scene containing a beach and a couple of buildings. The cars will be in the scene as well as the monkey mobster. As it is atm. this will be the only character and will just be standing there in an idle position as I have set myself late may as the deadline. The demo can then be expanded on but currently I am trying to really limit the workload in order to actually finish the god damn thing.
In the longer run maybe Free Vector could base my Final year project for my BA Games Art degree as well. Was planning to use BV for this (doing my current scene as a preparation for next year) but if FreeVector is a better alternative I would be happy to shift.
Let me know if you are interested. Its just an offer and if you are not interested that is perfectly fine, then I'll just do it in BV. You can contact me at copenhagenjazz ( at) gmail dot com
Anyways, just some info on Free Vector would be nice.
Cheers
"but I am not too happy about it"
If you don't mind, I was hoping you could explain what it is you don't like about it?
I was wondering...
-Is BV XBOX capable?
-Does BV have dynamic softshadows?
-Does it have any special mesh requirements?
-Does it have built in commands for motion blur, exposure control, glare or other HDR efects?
-Does it have LOD? Is it automatic or predefined?
-How much does it cost?
-How easy is it to put together a first person or third person shooter?
Many questions, I know but thanks for any answers?
If you don't mind, I was hoping you could explain what it is you don't like about it?
I was wondering...
-Is BV XBOX capable?
-Does BV have dynamic softshadows?
-Does it have any special mesh requirements?
-Does it have built in commands for motion blur, exposure control, glare or other HDR efects?
-Does it have LOD? Is it automatic or predefined?
-How much does it cost?
-How easy is it to put together a first person or third person shooter?
Many questions, I know but thanks for any answers?
I will try and answer what I can. Honestly I havent played around with it too much because I keep being disheartened by bugs, lack of documentation or other quirks. I am an artist, not a scripter or a very technical minded person either so too much hazzle and fidleling about just much me quit and go back to my 3d progam.
Anyways;
-Is BV XBOX capable?: No not as it stands currently. Gekido has hinted it will be but then again, he has hinted way too many things that never came true so I dont really think it will ever be.
-Does BV have dynamic softshadows?: Nope. Got stenciled shadows and shadowmaps. The build in shadow map system is rather buggy but you can make them in your 3d program and then import it afterwards.
-Does it have any special mesh requirements?: Erm no not really. One of their major selling points is the "zero art pipeline" although to be honest thats a bit bull. There has been loads of problems importing art assets into BV and especially animations seems to have caused a lot of problems. Gekido has said a lot of these bugs have been fixed for the upcoming release but I am not holding my breath.
-Does it have built in commands for motion blur, exposure control, glare or other HDR efects? It does have built in blur effect (not motion blur), bloom and hdr lighting. Really easy to use and one of the things I really do like about BV.
-Does it have LOD? Is it automatic or predefined?: Has LOD built in as well. LOD is handle via scripting and you can have an infinte numbers of LOD models. In the upcoming release they have also included fading in and out of objects depending on your distance to the object.
-How much does it cost? Currently it is 150$ but will rise to 250$ once they release the next update. This is quite a major one as it incorporates full pixel and vertex shader support.
-How easy is it to put together a first person or third person shooter?: Fairly easy. Especially fps as you wont really have to deal with the animation side of things. THere is a template system incorporated in BV that allows you to quickly get stuff up and running. Havent really tested it thoroughly enough to really say much about it though.
Overall BV isnt bad, it just lacks proper documentation, proper support from the developers and a basically to mature quite a bit. Another reason I am not happy about is that I simply havent been given what was promised. Gekido has given countless statements that has never really been followed up in real life and the absence of support is also very frustrating. There are some very good and helpfull people on the BV forums but when I as a customer have paid 150 dollars for a buggy and far from finished product I think it would be fair to expect at least decent support or some good documentation so we can figure stuff out. As it is atm people are exploring the software almost blind and that has led to a lot of people leaving BV.
Enough ramblings from my side. Cheers
Anyways;
-Is BV XBOX capable?: No not as it stands currently. Gekido has hinted it will be but then again, he has hinted way too many things that never came true so I dont really think it will ever be.
-Does BV have dynamic softshadows?: Nope. Got stenciled shadows and shadowmaps. The build in shadow map system is rather buggy but you can make them in your 3d program and then import it afterwards.
-Does it have any special mesh requirements?: Erm no not really. One of their major selling points is the "zero art pipeline" although to be honest thats a bit bull. There has been loads of problems importing art assets into BV and especially animations seems to have caused a lot of problems. Gekido has said a lot of these bugs have been fixed for the upcoming release but I am not holding my breath.
-Does it have built in commands for motion blur, exposure control, glare or other HDR efects? It does have built in blur effect (not motion blur), bloom and hdr lighting. Really easy to use and one of the things I really do like about BV.
-Does it have LOD? Is it automatic or predefined?: Has LOD built in as well. LOD is handle via scripting and you can have an infinte numbers of LOD models. In the upcoming release they have also included fading in and out of objects depending on your distance to the object.
-How much does it cost? Currently it is 150$ but will rise to 250$ once they release the next update. This is quite a major one as it incorporates full pixel and vertex shader support.
-How easy is it to put together a first person or third person shooter?: Fairly easy. Especially fps as you wont really have to deal with the animation side of things. THere is a template system incorporated in BV that allows you to quickly get stuff up and running. Havent really tested it thoroughly enough to really say much about it though.
Overall BV isnt bad, it just lacks proper documentation, proper support from the developers and a basically to mature quite a bit. Another reason I am not happy about is that I simply havent been given what was promised. Gekido has given countless statements that has never really been followed up in real life and the absence of support is also very frustrating. There are some very good and helpfull people on the BV forums but when I as a customer have paid 150 dollars for a buggy and far from finished product I think it would be fair to expect at least decent support or some good documentation so we can figure stuff out. As it is atm people are exploring the software almost blind and that has led to a lot of people leaving BV.
Enough ramblings from my side. Cheers