Rf and Jet3d

[Jeff]

I think the last thing anybody who's used Eclipse code for any length of time is to mess with MORE Eclipse code. If I could code, I'd be making apps with Irrlicht, zeropointgameplay, or ogre3d.

I would agree but the one thing Jet3d has that none of the others free engines seems to have is a good WYSIWYG editor. It is nice to be able to import models and geometry from modeling programs but you don't know what the level will really look like until it is rendered with the engine. Jet3d's editor uses the Jet3d engine allowing you to create and import geometry plus add objects such as sounds, terrain, effects, actors, lights, etc. This allows the designer the ability to create a full level using one application instead of having to switch between the modeling application and engine viewer trying to get the level to look correct.

Plus once Jet3d developers finish the D3D 9.0 driver conversion it will be easy to add all the features the other engines have because of shader support. Also, Jet3d's speed should greatly increase once the hardware T&L is finished.

I'm surprised you seem so hostile towards Jet3d because it's level editor is a designers dream. Being able to create a level using the engine. Being able to add actors and script there movement all from the editor. Being able to add, move, and adjust lights in real-time and seeing how they are going to look without compiling. Being able to place sounds in real-time and know exactly how they sound from the current camera position. Being able to add effects in real-time such as fire. This editor saves so much time and is easy to use. It is a designers dream and it is only getting better.

[hike1]

It is a designers dream and it is only getting better.

If you weren't around when it first came out, you probably don't have bad associations with it like I have. Eclipse blew a bunch of sunshine up our dresses about Jet 3d, then they bailed on the whole thing. Maybe you'll get it going, but as you say it's just
an editor right now.

[Jeff]

I was around and remember them hyping the G3D 2.0 engine and then the whole Wild Tangent nightmare happened. But it was hardly the fault of Eclipse, they were not making money and Microsoft canceled their project so they had no funds to keep giving out a free engine without any type of return. At least David Stafford believed enough in the community to make a deal with Wild Tangent to let the unfinished G3D 2.0 code be released to the community under the name Jet3d. But that is in the past, the Jet3d community has come together and embraced the engine. They are now trying to complete and surpass the vision Eclipse had for the engine.

[Guest]

If you weren't around when it first came out, you probably don't have bad associations with it like I have.

Jeff has been around at least since 1998 as I have, and you may have forgotten, but outside the forth coming CVS, my team was knee deep in Jet3d back then. And from our bad experiences with it 'then', nearly 5 years ago, we should have plenty of reasons to never return again if we were to blindly judge Jet3D based on when it was only a 'pup'.
But that was then, this is now. All the old issues that drove me and virtually all of the community away have been fixed. ( Plus the enhancments and a new community.) Hard to explain to one who thinks the 2.1.1 release is only different then the '99 release because of the Dx9 driver.

I'm surprised you seem so hostile towards Jet3d because it's level editor is a designers dream.

Amen brother Jeff!

P.S. - Add another developer 'Jean Louis'. Let's see that make "two" by your math.

[QuestOfDreams]

secondly, i have one question about all this: doesn't jet3d still have bindings to the genesis3d license, and thus we would still be tied to it? or did someone "buy out" the license?

http://www.jet3d.com/downloads/jet3dlicense.txt
it's pretty much the same as the genesis3d license

There is no comparison, and anyone who can't see Jet3D is clearly better looking for a render is 'blind' (no offense;)).

Even a blind hen sometimes finds a grain of corn.
If you can tell me what exactly does look better in jet3d I might see it
But just saying it looks better is no argument (and yes you have to argue here cause we are discerning people)
for example I'm still missing 32bit textures in jet3d which would make genesis3d the better looking engine...

The only advantages of jet3d I can see are the compile time for levels and a bit higher frame rate...

[KenDeel]

http://www.otherworldsonline.com/unholy/screamshots.htm
http://www.otherworldsonline.com/unholy/screenshots.htm
Some screens of both.
(Using the same textures color dept/size in both engines in the duplicate scenes.)
If you fail to see the difference, I guess I can't make the 'blind see'.
When we templated levels into Jet3D (in 2000), from G3D, we could see a marginal difference immediately. ALL of us could, regardless of the light settings.
There is no argument for Jet3D looking better than Genesis3D.
As I said before ask ANY of the eclipse team, which is better they will say Jet3D. ANYONE, who was around back in 1999, knows this.
Second, why would eclipse seek to build a Genesis3D v2.0 (Jet3D) engine, only to build an engine that renders in less quality than it's predecessor in G3D?
That is absolutely Absurd! (To say the least)

[KenDeel]

Code: Select all

http://www.jet3d.com/downloads/jet3dlicense.txt
it's pretty much the same as the genesis3d license 

The license is basaically the same except, WILD TANGENT is no part of Jet3D or it's license.

[QuestOfDreams]

ok, let me sum this up

When we templated levels into Jet3D (in 2000), from G3D

Back then Genesis3D neither had a dx7 driver nor support for 32bit/larger textures (not to mention bumpmapping, spheremapping etc)

There is no argument for Jet3D looking better than Genesis3D.

it looks better but you don't know why? must be some kind of black magic then...

As I said before ask ANY of the eclipse team, which is better they will say Jet3D.

Of course they will... they made it...

Second, why would eclipse seek to build a Genesis3D v2.0 (Jet3D) engine, only to build an engine that renders in less quality than it's predecessor in G3D?

I'm sure they wanted to make a better engine, but some parts of the jet3d code are directly copied from genesis3d (e.g. the actor rendering code (except for weigthed vertices) or the d3d driver) and did they ever finish jet3d as they wanted it to be?

The license is basaically the same except, WILD TANGENT is no part of Jet3D or it's license.

this tells me that either the license on the jet3d site is wrong or you haven't even read it

[Guest]

this tells me that either the license on the jet3d site is wrong or you haven't even read it

WILD tangent's relation to Jet3D is ONLY in you can't use JEt3D to created game driver:

You are not permitted to use the Covered Code for or in connection
with:

(a) viewing 3D content in a browser;
(b) streaming content via a browser;
(c) streaming compressed 3D graphics and animation to Web-based or
Internet-based viewers (by example, but not limited to, RealNetworks
products, MacroMedia products, Microsoft streaming media
applications.)

A 'restriction' as specifide by wild tangent BFD!
Beyond the restriction, WILD TANGENT HAS nothing to do with Jet3D or it's license. WT has nothing to do with Jet3D. I rest my case.

I'm sure they wanted to make a better engine, but some parts of the jet3d code are directly copied from genesis3d (e.g. the actor rendering code (except for weigthed vertices) or the d3d driver) and did they ever finish jet3d as they wanted it to be?

Regardless, no one can (with a sound mind) say Genesis3D/Rf render better than Jet3D.
Also why would Wild tangent close on a Million dollar deal one something less than Genesis3D?
So you don't even believe the developers (Eclipse)?

Now you can add larger texture support, more color depth, and a newer DX driver. Yeah, and you can add a hub cap on an OLD tractor, but it doesn't mean it is suddenly better than your Dads newer Mercedies, to take your Gal to the prom.

Now I realize you have allot of time in this engine, It's hard to leave an old dying friend, and I understand the bias.
(At this point it is more like trying to convince a Kerry supporter in '04 to not vote for him.... And when I cite for example, his "Christmas In Cambodia" Story as pure fiction. I would be called a liar. In short, some people will not listen to the truth because of that type of bias is deafing and 'blinding'.)

I was a stray in November to engine choice, and even gave G3D another look-see before returning to Jet3D. As one could say, in the least, G3D equals Jet3D in rendering quality. One could never say, G3D/RF is better looking than Jet3D with a straight face. (don't count bump mapping 'effects" I mean rendering quality. Like Video vs. DVD.)

Part of a problem is going from Quake style to "unreal' style editing is a leep. So people are afraid to try it for themselves. But still it is worth it. Imagine, No leaks, a few minutes to build ytour level, not many hours to compile. Actors can set set into position in the 3d view port. No guess if the RED X is setting the player or crate on the floor squarely or into the floor.. Getting particles adjusted just so they look like dripping water, spark, smoke, flame, volcanic eruptions, are a snap to adjust in real-time inside the editor. As the lens flare portals, skybox (uses a portal like Unreal). As Jeff said such thing are a level designer dream.

[Guest]

http://www.jet3d.com/downloads/jet3dlicense.txt
it's pretty much the same as the genesis3d license

Same license but you don't have to go through Wild Tangent to get it. Wild Tangent gave Dave Stafford the ability to license the Jet3d engine. I've also read that Dave has lowered the price considerably for a full licence but you will need to talk to him.

Below is a link to a few screenshots of a quick level I made. I think Genesis3d would be hard pressed to produce the same level with a resinable frame rate. Those pictures were take from within the editor, I didn't need an external program to view or animate the world.

http://www.jet3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=502

[QuestOfDreams]

So you don't even believe the developers (Eclipse)?

Well, if they think of genesis I guess they will think of version 1.1 and not the 6(?) years of development that the genesis and rf community put into the engine... well I could be wrong here...

Now you can add larger texture support, more color depth, and a newer DX driver. Yeah, and you can add a hub cap on an OLD tractor, but it doesn't mean it is suddenly better than your Dads newer Mercedies, to take your Gal to the prom.

I guess you are joking, cause jet3d is also based on the genesis engine, just with a few more new parts
and what if I would rewrite the whole engine (not that I would do it...)? would it still be the same old tractor for you? where does it stop being a tractor and begin to be a mercedes?

Now I realize you have allot of time in this engine, It's hard to leave an old dying friend, and I understand the bias.

it's true that I put quite some time in this engine and I guess I hate it as much as I love it
however if genesis is a dying engine I might remind you of the time when jet3d was almost a dead engine

I mean rendering quality

ok again, what's rendering quality? screen resolution? full screen antialiasing? mipmapping? texture resolution/color depth? texture filters? lighting?

Imagine, No leaks, a few minutes to build ytour level, not many hours to compile. Actors can set set into position in the 3d view port. No guess if the RED X is setting the player or crate on the floor squarely or into the floor.. Getting particles adjusted just so they look like dripping water, spark, smoke, flame, volcanic eruptions, are a snap to adjust in real-time inside the editor.

I think in the past 5 years I had exactly 1 leak in all of my levels, which was fixed in a few seconds...
All RF editors can show you actors in each of the 4 views.
Compiling only the entities doesn't take too long and you can preview the changed settings pretty quick too (not immediately as in jet3d but rfedit is no real time wysiwyg editor, that's the way it is and I've already mentioned that this is a nice feature of jet3d)

Well, I will stop arguing now cause you are as convinced of jet3d as I am not and this discussion won't lead us anywhere

[Guest]

Well, I will stop arguing now cause you are as convinced of jet3d as I am not and this discussion won't lead us anywhere

Best point made so far. It seems both have good points and bad ones so its like comparing apples and oranges.

[Guest]

Yeah that one above was SithMaster just didnt sign in.

[jonas_]

Well I don't real like the arguing, But I do have sort of a challange! Since you guys are so convenced that jet3d is so good, Why don't you try to implant it in Realityfactory and take genisis 3d out then we will really be able to compare. You will be able to point to it and say look and not just brag about something we can't see in action!

[hike1]

Now I realize you have allot of time in this engine, It's hard to leave an old dying friend, and I understand the bias

Jet 3d needs about 10 people working for 5 years to get to RF's state of 'health'. It is what it is, slow, ugly, probably only an educational 'hobby' engine, but there's nothing free out there that has as many features, working and not. I doubt if it will ever get better, I for one ain't 'upgrading' again, I have this version working, don't need any more bugs.